Baptism Debate (White vs Shishko) Available
Woohoo! The baptism debate between Dr. James White and Pastor Bill Shishko is now available online in mp3 for free! I thought I had to purchase, but it turned out the mp3’s are for free. Only the CD and DVD are for purchase. Dr. White defends the credobaptist position (“believers only” baptism) while Pastor Shishko defends the oikobaptist (household baptism) side.
I’m now leaning on the Presbyterian (oikobaptist or paedobaptist) side, but I love Dr. White’s writing and debating skills. Any debate with him in it should be interesting. He is one of my favorite authors and such an erudite Christian apologist. (Meanwhile, I’m also trying to finish Pastor Shishko’s Christian Baptism series from a while back. 
)
December 11th, 2006 at 10:22 am | Permalink
I’m a Christisn too. My dad is a pastor. It’s nice to see other Christians using blogs too.
December 11th, 2006 at 10:24 am | Permalink
I’m a Christian too. My dad is a pastor. It’s nice to see other Christians using blogs too.
BTW, if you wanna check out my blog and post on God, it’s address is http://www.postongodblog.blogspot.com
December 26th, 2006 at 3:58 pm | Permalink
I think Shisko is the first person to use the term “oikobaptism.” I think it’s a misnomer, though, since a credobaptist baptizes households too, when a person believes with their whole household.
December 26th, 2006 at 6:06 pm | Permalink
Elnwood, thank you for your visit to my blog. (By the way, the pastor’s name is spelled “Shishko,” not “Shisko.”) Well, I think to say that a Presbyterian believes in oikobaptism is accurate because it describes the notion that they always baptize the whole household or family including infants of the believing parents. The credobaptist adheres to “believer’s baptism,” so in cases where they do have their whole household baptized, it is only by the professing faith of each individual member (if they all happen to believe in Christ), not because of the covenantal relationship of the family as understood in the Presbyterian position. Thus, credobaptists do not always have their whole households baptized. Theirs is not of the same meaning poured into the context of the Presbyterian’s “household baptism.” In fact, according to credobaptist, their infants should never be baptised (thus, he may never have his children or the rest of his household baptized unless they all profess faith in Christ one day).
But, at any rate, if you were to strictly use the same token of reasoning, then “credobaptist” may be a misnomer, too, since it means “believer’s baptism,” which Presbyterians also adhere to in cases of adult converts. (Maybe someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I was taught, credobaptist literally means “believer’s baptism,” not “believers-only” baptism.)
Well, thanks again Elnwood for your note. Have a good day!
December 29th, 2006 at 2:38 pm | Permalink
Fair enough. Presbyterians are credobaptists too, but for them it’s not a matter of being an adult convert, but a matter of whether they were “baptized” previously. Age is not a factor for credobaptism, only credible profession.
This is important because Baptists baptize children too, when they show faith. Thus, as James White pointed out (and Spurgeon before him), the Luke 18 passage, “Let the children come to me,” has no relevance to the baptism discussion.
Blessings!
February 25th, 2007 at 6:27 am | Permalink
Hi Jessica,
Just wandering around your site and thought I’d make this late entry. Just a thought:
Neither Baptists or Presbyterians Baptize whole households without qualification. I don’t think it is correct to say, “Well, I think to say that a Presbyterian believes in oikobaptism is accurate because it describes the notion that they always baptize the whole household or family including infants of the believing parents.”
Baptists won’t baptize the whole household unless they are all believers.
Presbyterians won’t always baptize the whole household unless the household is filled with believing adults (whether the children, under an extrabiblically defined age, are believers isn’t a determining factor). Presbyterians won’t Baptise unbelieving Adults. For example, if a man, as the head of the household, comes to faith in Christ and his wife doesn’t then Presbyterians won’t baptise her. I know of no Presbyterians that would proceed to baptise the unbelieving wife, even though they would baptise the children. Often, 1 Cor 7:14 is called into service as a basis for saying that it is ok to baptise infants yet the same passage also says the wife is holy.
Anyway, all that to say that with an unbelieving wife, or late teen, or early 20s, or unbelieving grandmother in the household, the Presbyterians won’t perform a household baptism. Therefore, they aren’t truly household baptisers without qualification (just like the Baptists!).
Just a thought. Love your site and I’m looking forward to listening to the debate.
Your brother in Christ- Shane.
February 26th, 2007 at 2:20 pm | Permalink
If I may speak on behalf of Jessica, I don’t think she intended to portray the idea that all people without exception should be baptized, but more likely that household baptism is the language of the New Testament (as opposed to merely infant baptism). In other words, according to the Reformed Paedobaptist, the emphasis is that whole households are brought into covenant (by representation: believers and their children). Knowing Jessica, I’m comfortable in saying that’s what she believes. If I’m wrong, Jess, forgive me for butting in.
March 6th, 2007 at 8:05 pm | Permalink
Hi Shane,
Thank you so much for visiting my humble blog. I’ve also received your other message which you’ve left on my Guestbook… thanks for your encouragement, I really appreciate your kindness!
I’ve also taken the time to stop by your web address…I think it is a wonderful and beautifully-designed site. 
It seems rich with resources. May God continue to bless it.
About the baptism issue, sorry for the confusion and for being so unclear in what I wrote. I had written in a rush and I shouldn’t have done that when writing on a big, complex issue like baptism (and especially on a small space like this).
I do agree with you about not baptizing people without exception… I myself also do not (and have never) believed that unbelieving adults should be baptized (thanks so much Josh, for the comment). (And, I’m also glad that I know of no Presbyterian who would do so either.
) But yes, I meant to communicate the idea that in the Presbyterian position, the emphasis is that whole households are brought into covenant. I didn’t intend to use the word “oikobaptism” to mean that everyone in the household (e.g. unbelieving wife, etc.) should be baptized, but rather that it was the language of the New Testament. I had meant to use it in the same way that Pastor Shisko does (and as you’ve alluded, no Presbyterian including Pastor Shisko himself believes in oikobaptism without qualifications either). 
Sorry for the confusion and my lack of clarity in writing. And thanks again for your note. I’d probably be visiting your site again soon sometime.
In Christ’s grace,
Jessica
March 6th, 2007 at 8:50 pm | Permalink
Dear Jessica,
Not willing to change your position concerning your view of baptism (I saw that you seem to be leaning on paedobaptism). Let me challenge you reading probably the best book you could read on the subject (I am credobaptist, though - being a baptist). The title of the book is “Baptism of Disciples Alone: A covenantal argument of credobaptism versus paedobaptist”. You can see it here: http://www.founders.org/fpress/baptism.html
March 12th, 2007 at 1:14 pm | Permalink
Hi Pastor Gagnon,
Thank you for writing. Yes, I have heard of Fred Malone and his book. Actually, the first time I encountered it was perhaps almost two years ago. Thank you again for your kind note. I hope that you’re having a blessed day in the Lord.
August 16th, 2007 at 12:41 am | Permalink
For those who are looking for Pastor Gagnon’s recommended book by Fred Malone on “The Baptism of Disciples Alone”. Here is the only book store that I found carry in stock for a price of $35.00 http://reformers.cart.net.au/details/2014592.html
Product: Baptism of Disciples Alone / Malone / HC
Code: 8409
Price: $35.00
Availability: IN STOCK
But if you can until when ? from
http://www.solid-ground-books.com/books_FoundersPressTitles.asp
for half of the price.
August 16th, 2007 at 1:10 am | Permalink
I have just placed the order for this book and found that this book store is from Australia. I will definitely follow up with this order. This is the first time I have bought a book that is not in the U.S.A.
August 21st, 2007 at 10:03 pm | Permalink
“The Baptism of Disciples Alone”.
It must be a good book. No one have it in stock, even over sea.