How Free is Free Will?
Recently a visitor to my blog wrote a comment in one of my entries to share his views and beliefs against the Reformed view of soteriology. One of the nice things and purposes of a blog is to interact, share thoughts, and learn with one another as we seek to grow in our walk with God. I’m thankful to have the opportunity to learn and exchange thoughts with others. So with that in mind, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts and reflections on this subject…
I believe that one of the common objections against the doctrine of God’s sovereign grace in electing sinners often times stems from a misunderstanding of the nature of fallen, sinful human beings. Many believe that human nature, though infected by original sin and the fall, has a neutral free will or perhaps even the inclination to choose good.
Those who reject Calvinism likened the non-believer as a mere patient suffering from an illness (sin) and in need of a cure (the Gospel). They believe that he, just like any other sick person, has the ability to choose to take the medication (e.g. choose God). But this is a wrong analogy. The Bible likened the sinner not to a sick person, but rather a dead person (e.g. spiritually dead in sin). There’s a reason why it uses this analogy. Can a dead person respond to anything? Does a dead man or woman desire to choose life? Well, he or she is dead; they are unaware of their need. The Scripture uses this analogy to point out the impossibility of the sinner to choose God in his spiritual death. That’s why Paul says that though we were once dead to sin, now we are made alive spiritually in Jesus Christ because that is what it takes for God to save us.
The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God. He cannot respond to God’s outward call. His heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not — indeed he cannot — choose good over evil in the spiritual realm.
The “Prince of Preachers” Charles Spurgeon said,
“Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in blessed bonds of grace.”
And George Whitefield aptly said:
“Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven … till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure.”
This is precisely why people continue to reject God in their sins, unless God raises them from their death and makes them alive spiritually.
Another common misunderstanding of God’s unconditional election is the assertion that God makes robots out of men in predestining or electing them unto salvation. But, no one goes to heaven kicking and screaming. Allow me to echo the words of Charles Spurgeon when he said, “An Arminian, on his knees, prays desperately like a Calvinist.” 
The truth is: we despair of anything other than unmerited, irresistible, sovereign grace as the cause of our salvation. Who of us, when our loved ones are lost as they dangle over the fire of hell, would pray, “O Lord, I know You desire to save my brother John, but he over here has his own free will…” That prayer surely makes God out to be an impotent Savior. I’d venture to say that even when we were Arminians, chances are at some point in our lives, we have pleaded on bended knees before the throne of grace, “O Lord, save my unsaved parents!! Seize them! Draw them with Your cords of love. Pluck them out as a brand from the burning, O Lord!”
Which elect person, when awakened from his spiritual death and shown the depravity of his sinfulness, would choose to return to their dead state of damnation in bondage to sin and reject an eternal bliss of heaven with his Holy Creator? In saving a sinner, the Holy Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ.
I praise God that we’re not dependent in any way upon our so called “free will” in order to be saved, for if that were the case, no one would ever be saved! No one would have chosen God in his natural dead state. I thank God that we do not serve an impotent Savior who is limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success.
If salvation were in even any minute way (or shape or form) dependent upon the “free will” of man who is dead spiritually, we certainly have room to boast. Consider Charles Spurgeon’s rendition of Arminian prayer to demonstrate the vanity of such a belief:
Fancy him [an Arminian] praying, `Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not — that is the difference between me and them.’
I am eternally grateful to my Almighty God that salvation is all of Him, beginning to end, top to bottom, inside and out. I have no room to boast. I thank God that He saved me not with the help of my own supposed “glorious free will,” but simply by His glorious, amazing grace.
Thank You, Lord, that when I was dead in sin and could not respond to You, You in Your mercy and grace, raised me alive spiritually by changing my dead cold heart of stone with a new heart of flesh, that I may believe and thus come freely and willingly to Christ.
November 30th, 2007 at 8:23 am | Permalink
Oh yeah! Amen! You preach…err…write it, Jessi!
December 1st, 2007 at 2:24 pm | Permalink
The Arminian say that God objectively provided salvation, but cannot save anyone.
Scripture is completely opposite and says that salvation is only from the Lord.
Scripture Alone,
Ken
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:16 pm | Permalink
Jessica, I once had a boss who prayed, in front of a bunch of us before work (I think he knew from his son, my friend, that I was discovering the doctrines of grace; although, I was at that point where someone should have chained me down for a time away from public)… anyway, before work, he prayed, “Thank you Lord, that you don’t violate our free wills…”
I hope he comes to see that the reason we should be thankful is that he did violate our wills (our sinful wills). Good posting!
December 2nd, 2007 at 4:40 pm | Permalink
Hi friends, thanks for all your comments on this post!
Happy Lord’s Day to you!
All this talk about free will reminds me of King Nebuchadnezzar and how God made him eat grass and grow long fingernails for 14 years before he (I believe) repented.
:D Wow, that was quite a way of changing someone’s heart. 
By the way, I was just looking through a few pages in my blog (this blog) two minutes ago. And guess what? You know how the “Commonplaces” section of my blog is “randomly” generated… Well, providentially, the quote that just popped out has to do with my latest post entry:
Woohoo! Talk about providence!
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:44 pm | Permalink
I personally believe that Calvinism is a false doctrine. I’ve heard Calvinist say that God has created some individuals damned for Hell, unable to repent. Even if they desire to be saved they cannot be saved since their purpose in being born is to die and burn in Hell. Who could believe such nonsense? 2 Peter 3:9 says “The Lord is…NOT willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.”
Acts 17:30 says “God…now commandeth ALL men EVERY where to repent.”
John 1:9 says that Jesus “…was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.” EVERY human being has light from God and from Christ, and so could be saved.
John 12:32,33 says “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.”
God has “no respect of persons”. He has given ALL men EVERY where His light so that they might be born again. Remember John 3:16-17? “God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him MIGHT be saved.”
1 John 2:2- “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OUR’S ONLY, BUT ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.”
1 Timothy 2:1-4 says that God wants ALL men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The Bible teaches that God has provided a Savior of all men so you shouldn’t put a limit on His atoning blood that He shed for EVERY man, woman, and child. God wants everyone to be saved, but some will not be saved. God calls everyone, but not everyone will say “yes”. Many have “tasted the good word of God” but still refuse Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin, but many resist. God gives everyone the opportunity to repent, but many continue to rebel (example: Revelation 2:21). Proverbs 1:24,25- “Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel and would none of my reproof.” Sounds like free will to me!
December 3rd, 2007 at 7:40 pm | Permalink
Hi PKC,
Welcome to my blog.
Thanks so much for visiting! I appreciate it. Since you had kindly taken the time to comment, I just wanted to return the gesture by responding to your comments.
You wrote:
Of course, I hope no one believes in such nonsense. And no Calvinist that I know of actually believes this. The problem lies in the premise of your statement “Even if they desire to be saved,” because of your assumption that there are people in hell who had a desire to be with God. However, there is not a single person in hell who had the desire to be with God. And this is precisely the problem: they had no such desire, because of their sinful nature. Everyone in hell rejected God. Apart from the Holy Spirit’s regenerating work and power in one’s life, the sinner will not—indeed he cannot—desire God, because in his natural dead state, he is desperately wicked and depraved. He is in bondage to his sinful nature. Lest I sound redundant, I won’t repeat what I wrote in my post above, so if you haven’t had the opportunity to read my whole entry yet, you’re welcome to read my third and fourth paragraph there.
You wrote:
When you said, “you shouldn’t put a limit on His atoning blood that He shed for EVERY man, woman, and child,” all I say is: “Amen, brother!”
I wholeheartedly agree with you on that part. Since I believe Christ saves all those for whom He shed His blood on the cross (i.e. the elect), I do affirm the power of His atonement is efficacious. I am not putting a limit to the atoning power of His blood since I believe His death accomplishes what it was intended to do.
However, with your understanding that there are people going to hell who are as much bought with the blood of Christ as those who are in heaven, how could this not limit the atoning power of Christ’s shed blood? The necessary implication is there are drops of Christ’s blood shed in vain. According to your system of understanding, Christ’s death makes all men merely savable, but doesn’t actually save them, since it’s possible that all men end up in hell (though Christ’s blood was shed for them) if they all reject God. Thus, Christ’s death makes salvation only possible, but not actual.
You see, those who believe that Christ died for every single person (not just the elect) may not limit the extent of Christ’s atonement, but do limit the power and the efficacy of His shed blood. They make God out to be an impotent Savior who wishes to save people but who, in effect, is limited in His power of applying salvation by man’s will.
Calvinism, however, limits the extent but not the power and efficacy of Christ’s shed blood, because His atonement actually accomplishes what it was intended to do (namely, to save His people from their sins and reconcile them with God).
An analogy would be a bridge. With Arminianism, Christ’s death is like a wide bridge (with all men walking on it) but one that only goes halfway to its destination. With the Calvinist’s understanding (and I believe the Scriptural one), Christ’s atoning death is like a narrow bridge (limited in extent to those of the elect) but goes all the way to its destination.
Well, PKC, thanks so much for reading this.
I know I’ve written a bit long, so I really appreciate your taking the time to read it through. I think I’ll stop soon since I don’t want it to get overwhelmingly long. However, I would very much like to respond to your quotes of verses that speak of “all” men, so perhaps I can save that for next time.
Let me at least try to write a quick answer to that, though… in the verses you quoted (e.g. John 3:16, II Peter 3:9, etc.), it’s important to take note of the context and to whom the verse is addressed.
I’m often told that one of the keys to rightly understand the Bible is: “Never read a Bible verse…by itself.” We’re told to read the context and its surrounding passages so as to not misrepresent its intended meaning.
In II Peter 3:9 that you quoted, Peter writes: “The Lord is…patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish”.
Who is the “you” spoken to here?
It’s important to note that the greater context, wherein Peter addresses his whole first Epistle, is written to the elect. Peter wrote in 1 Peter 1:1, “To those who are elect…” It’s also important to take note that when he speaks of the scoffers, Peter identifies them as “they,” but when he speaks to his audience he identifies them as “beloved” or “you” (i.e. Christians). Thus, when he refers to the “you” in this second epistle (chapter 3, verse 9), he’s talking to the same audience, which is the elect, that the Lord is patient with them—not willing that any of them should perish, but for all of His people to come to repentance.
Okay, I will stop here for now … this time for real.
Thanks to all for reading. And may God continue to bless you.
Just a side note: I use the term “Calvinist” for the purpose of our dialog here, not because I necessarily like labels (regrettably labels carry many baggages due to people’s misrepresentations of what they actually mean) but rather because I believe historic Calvinism (as eloquently expressed by our great heroes of the past such as John Calvin, John Owen, etc.) is a true representation of what the Bible teaches concerning salvation.
December 3rd, 2007 at 8:45 pm | Permalink
“Even if they desire to be saved they cannot be saved since their purpose in being born is to die and burn in Hell. Who could believe such nonsense?”
I’ve never heard a Calvinist say that, but most who oppose anything Calvinistic and believe in the free will of man say that kind of stuff and distort what historic Protestantism says.
I will say if someone desires Christ then God has chose them by his Grace. Meaning He has drawn that person to faith in Christ by the Gospel .
“2 Peter 3:9 says “The Lord is…NOT willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.”
That’s a misquote and you are leaving out who the “ANY” stands for, because it’s not the world Peter is writing to, rather it’s christians, the Beloved.
“9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
IF that isn’t good enough, look at the context around the verses. 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, BELOVED.
Again, 2 Peter 3:8, 9, “But do not overlook this one fact, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
This passage echos God’s Preservation of his children in Romans 8:31-39
How do you reconcile free will, when Scripture says that believers have been chosen not on their free will, but according to His Will?
Ephesian 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he CHOSE us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he PREDESTINED us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his WILL, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were APPOINTED to eternal life believed.
That greek verb appoint, ordain, assign(to a certain position or lot)is only used in certain tenses. The hand of Providence is specifically behind this verb, saving as many as “He” APPOINTED to eternal life believed.
Don’t you see that in the greater context of that passage that their were many, but only those that were Ordained, or Appointed to eternal life believed. Not everyone there was appointed to eternal life or the passage wouldn’t read the way that it does, saying as many…
December 3rd, 2007 at 9:08 pm | Permalink
The way I see free-will and pre-destination is like this:
When someone is not yet a believer, it would be as if her ‘free-will’ allowed her to have faith in Jesus. (many bible verses support the ‘free-will’ at this level)
But once she moved to the other side (saved by grace), she will realized that it was not her choice, but God who has chosen her. (some bible verses become applicable)
The only reason someone who call herself a believer would think predestination didn’t make sense was that she associated herself with other non-believers or not-yet-believers (taking their side).
Once a preacher share this: If you really understand what it means to be saved by sheer grace. You will be trembled. Because that would mean there was nothing, absolutely nothing that God could not ask from you.
I think, life would be much easier/simpler if it was really our own choice to become Christians.
December 4th, 2007 at 5:42 am | Permalink
I see I am not alone in what I believe about calvinism… since everyone wants an authority to quote, I found one who is an authority on calvinism who states it perfectly.
December 4th, 2007 at 5:57 am | Permalink
Some more quotes:
December 4th, 2007 at 1:38 pm | Permalink
Ken wrote:
Thanks, Ken, for your feedback. Yes, what you wrote is indeed correct. I appreciate your other inputs as well!
Good to have another brother here to comment. 
Ron quoted Calvin:
Hi Ron,
I’m not sure as to the purpose of your quoting that. But seeing that you seem to be skeptical of Calvinism, I assume perhaps you were protesting the injustice of God’s sending people to hell. My question to you is simply: If God has chosen to elect NO one, would it have been just of God to do so? If you say “yes, it would have been just,” then there’s no problem with the above quote. If you say “no,” you are then implying that God is obligated to save anyone at all, as if He owes any sinner a salvation. The truth is even if God has chosen to not save anyone, He would still be just in doing so. Justice is receiving what we deserve (while grace is receiving what we do not deserve). And that’s what all of us (sinners) justly deserve: hell.
Furthermore, you cited quotes by people above. They’re just quotes that essentially say “Calvinism is wrong” but do not substantiate why it is wrong. I more appreciate comments like PKB’s above in that at least he tried to write Scripture verses that he thinks substantiate his claims (even if I disagree with him). I think such arguments are much more profitable to the discussion.
Ron wrote:
Ron, rather than reading Dave Hunt’s book alone, I would suggest that perhaps you (and everyone else who’re interested) would consider reading Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views by Dr. James R. White and Dave Hunt (available at amazon as well). This book is a debate between Dr. White (presenting the Calvinist side) vs. Dave Hunt (Arminian) in book form. By reading both sides, it lessens the possibility of reading straw men arguments without reading the rejoinder. I could not recommend reading Hunt’s book since he built up straw men arguments and then he attacks that version of “Calvinism” as opposed to historic Calvinism. The book Debating Calvinism, on the other hand, presents both sides clearly and carefully in a fair debate format.
Thanks for reading. God bless!
December 4th, 2007 at 2:04 pm | Permalink
Also, in regards to the John Calvin quote above… perhaps Ron quoted it to imply that God sends people to hell even though they desire to be with God. Ron, I’m not sure if this is what you implied but if it is indeed, this objection has already been posted by PKB above when he wrote:
Please feel free to click here to read my reply to it (and also my above post or other comments above to avoid redundancy). Thanks.
December 6th, 2007 at 7:41 pm | Permalink
Here are some Scriptures to chew on, Friends:
Genesis 6:5 “The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Job 15:15-16 “Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less [God puts trust in] one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!”
Psalm 14:2-4 “The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD?”
Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I [David] was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
Psalm 58:3 “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.”
Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man,
but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.
Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.
Ecclesiastes 8:11 “Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil.”
(Continued on next comment)
December 6th, 2007 at 7:45 pm | Permalink
I think Jessica already touched on this, but the doctrine of Limited Atonement in no way limits the Atonement. God accomplished that which he designed for the Atonement: To “save His people from their sins.” God always accomplishes what He has set out to do. He never fails. How could we think, for one moment, that He desires men to be saved, but can’t ACCOMPLISH it? That’s a bit insulting to the King of king’s and Lord of lord’s ability, don’t ya think? Let us proclaim with Job:
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.”-Job 42:2
If you’re interested in reading a little bit more about the Five Points as they really are, and not as some mischaracterization that folks have given it, I’ve written an article that can be read here.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:55 am | Permalink
WOW.. i would say that all the arguments you have put forth do more to prove my points
talk about a straw man argument!!! there are many flavors of calvinists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinist
when it is all said and done, and you boil down all the pretty words and arguments, calvinists basically believe as i quoted earlier
so that in the calvinist’s mind, the Almighty God is either unwilling or incapable of saveing everyone. That Christ did NOT die to save everyone and only a select few are chosen to go to heaven. I personally reject your army of straw men and tend to agree more with
December 7th, 2007 at 8:58 am | Permalink
Ron,
Did you really, and in all seriousness, just use wikipedia as an infallible and always accurate source? Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there is correct information found therein, but by no means is it perfect. Your repsonses are incoherent, and you’re incapable, or so it seems, of intelligent discussion on Biblical matters. You refuse to deal with the texts of Scripture, such as Romans 9. You can tout all the worn out philosophical stuff you want, and even act as a demagogue by appealing to fallen people’s emotions, but ultimately, if it doesn’t square with Scripture, you should drop it all and proclaim “let God be true and every man a liar.”
I see that you re-quoted Calvin, but you failed to answer Jessica’s question concerning it. Jessica never, nor have I, denied the rightness of Calvin’s quote, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. You, on the other hand, seem to ignore Scripture, including the multiple passages I cited above, and instead desire to cling to your precious (yet wrong) belief in man having a free will. Man’s will is not free. Why? Because it is in bondage to sin. “Whoever sins is a slave to sin.” What’s that? Scripture? YEAH! Scripture!
Let me give you an illustration of the Justice of God:
Now tell me, Ron, who was the “unjust” person in all this?
From this story we can ascertain one thing: All 3 men were guilty and worthy of death for their treason. But what else can be deduced from such a simplified illustration? You might say, “Why did the Ruler not grant pardon to the Second man? That’s not fair!” But He was MORE than fair! All 3 men were guilty and could have justly been thrown to the death penalty for their treasonous affairs against the Great Ruler’s law. Yet, the Great Ruler, in His mercy, showed grace. He was in no way obligated to free any of them. Yet He did. He was the Lawmaker. He was not guilty of breaking the law. Who could accuse Him of being “unfair”? None. The fact that He pardoned one of them does not show “unfairness”, but great undeserved mercy!
Such is also true of our salvation. We cannot boast. Why? “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”-Ephesians 2:8,9. I fear that Christians have become so desensitized to these “common” verses, that they miss the full impact. No man can boast of His place in Christ! Why? For it was a gift given by God, not commandeered by the spiritual prowess of man! Dead men cannot move to obtain God in and of themselves. Though the preceding illustration is by no means the best, it still speaks to what Paul has to say in reply to the common objections to the belief in God’s absolute sovereignty in the salvation of men.
So, Ron, is God unjust, or unfair for choosing Jacob over Esau? Well, the Holy Spirit, through Paul has an answer for you:
Reject strawmen all you want. Quote poor exegetes of Scripture all you want. But you cannot deny the explicit teaching of God’s predestination and election in Scripture.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:56 pm | Permalink
funny
you pick and choose your scriptures to support your straw man..
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield (ie: free will to choose) yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
so everyone i quote is a morron?? no matter, let me quote a morron then.. pp 309 of “The Complete Idiot’s Guide to the Reformation and Protestantism”"Other changes restructured the settlement to ensure that Puritanism would not dominate the community (jamestown) the way it would later in massachusetts. The ruler-makers in virginia would never involve the clergy, but would be genuinely secular, elected government–flavored with Puritanism–that would handle the future of the Virginia colonists.
This same year brought the ship Jesus to virginia with ‘20 or so’ indentured black men. The english, with thier ingrained attitude of superiors and inferiors, and the calvinistic mind-set of the elect and damned, saw these new people as inferiors, as beings sent by God to be servants. These new field hands for virginia and massachusetts fit nicely into the worldview of Puritansim: The order of nature is the law of God. Society, for englishmen, needs structure; this means civilized and civilizing Christians ruling over pagans and papists–the benighted poeple who would not or could not appreciaate true christian culture and religion.”
from what i have seen and heard here and in the pulpit, nothing has changed in the calvinist attitude.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:07 pm | Permalink
as for replying to jessica, how am i wrong in that? I agree with her that all who desire to go to heaven will go there covered in the blood of our Lord and in obediance to Him. do you disagree?
I have made my objections plain, am i required to reply to each and every posting and restate my objections over and over? or should i do as you do and snowball quotes that support a position (in and out of context) without addressing the objections by denegrating the person or the quotes? it is of no profit to anyone to build thier beliefs out of select verses that support them by ignoring or denegrating the other verses or sources that show they are wrong in thier conclusions. you prefer the veil of your beliefs over the whole of the scriptures.
dont worry.. i still pray for you, as i pray for all as the bible says to (even though its shows above that the calvinists dont and consider it an impossibility)
December 7th, 2007 at 1:52 pm | Permalink
Ron, you wrote:
I assure you, Sir. I embrace ALL of Scripture in both its totality and parts. I will not shy away from one passage in the Scriptures. I don’t “pick and choose” as you accuse, unless you want me to really copy and paste Genesis to Revelation on Jessica’s blog.
How’s this?
Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning GOD created…”
So here’s the very first Scripture in God’s holy Word, and to what does it testify? God’s sovereignty in Creation.
Next:
Rev. 22:21 “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.”
Amd here’s the very last Scripture in the Word of God, and to what does it testify? God’s sovereignty in Salvation.
I’ve already provided Scripture upon Scripture in my previous posts. So from Cover to Cover we see God’s Sovereignty.
You cited Rom. 6:16. I’ll re-cite it here:
Then you make this passing remark:
Did you even take the time to read the context and figure out who he’s addressing?
As has been noted several times, a man will do what he desires to do. And guess what men are born naturally desiring to do? Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” Thus, it takes God’s regenerating power to change a man’s heart to WANT to obey Christ.
You continued:
What is a “morron?”
Oh, and that book you quoted, it’s title is definitely appropriate if one wants to continue in their ignorance concerning the Doctrine of God’s sovereignty in the salvation of men. The book is obviously biased.
I didn’t say you didn’t “reply” to Jessica’s, I said you didn’t answer her question surrounding the Calvin quote. Your objections may be plain to yourself, but I’m left, and I’m confident others are as well, scratching my head as to what you meant to say…particularly because you fail to deal with passages quoted.
Please show me wherein I have cited a verse that does not comply with its context. I’m not afraid to deal with the texts, Ron. So, point them out for me, and let’s discuss it. I’m a fallible man, and not above reproach. Substantiate your claims. As for objections, which ones haven’t I dealt with? Bring the objections. Show me how I’ve violated the context of said passages. But please don’t give me some ridiculous passage from a “Complete Idiot’s Guide” book, or from Tim LaHaye. My beliefs are a product from reading the Bible and appreciating in its entirety. So, I reject your last remark in the aforequoted bit.
I’m not worried. What ever might have caused you to think I’m worried? I’m glad that you’ve perfected the art of praying. I, however, am still in the molding process.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:34 pm | Permalink
Greetings, Jessica, and everyone! Nice site you have by the way, Jessica. Very classy.
Ron, as has been said previously, I too have once been on the Arminian side of things. I understand how it is difficult to come to accept “The Doctrines of Grace,” because I struggled with it myself. In fact, I lost a lot of sleep over it, struggling against my traditions and examining the Scriptures.
It hit me when I read Psalm 14 where we read that “There is none who does good, no not one” and that “there is none who seeks after God.” If none do good, our righteousness are like filthy rags, (Isaiah 64:6) and no one seeks after God, then we truly are dead in our sin, (Eph 2:1)and we cannot hope to please God apart from Him. We cannot seek after God on our own. “Dead” does not mean slightly living. We are literally, deceased people walking. We also know, that it is absurd to think that someone who is dead can bring themselves to life.
Jesus, in calling forth Lazarus from the grave made manifest this truth in reality. Do you think Lazarus had an option when Jesus said to him, “Lazarus, come forth!” Absolutely not. Lazarus came forth because he was told by the I AM to come out of the grave! In the same way, we as believers come to faith in Christ because God draws us to Himself. We are not partially dead in sin, we are fully dead.
Soli Deo Gloria
December 20th, 2007 at 3:07 am | Permalink
Jared wrote:
Hi, Jared! Welcome to my blog. Thanks so much for visiting and for taking the time to leave a message. And thanks for your kind words about my blog.
Jared wrote:
Thanks for reminding us of that! Really appreciate your sharing the insights. Please feel free to visit back anytime. It was edifying to read your comment. And may God continue to bless you!
December 20th, 2007 at 3:30 am | Permalink
If anyone else is interested in this subject, I want to encourage anyone to refer again to the Scripture. I don’t think blogs are the best place for long theological debates, so I’m not a big fan of internet debates.
There’s just too little space for a good thorough discussion on such a deep topic. It also appears that such debates often generate more heat than light.
So with that, please allow me to leave just a few words from the pages of inspired Scripture where the apostle Paul addresses the subject of election (a topic which, not surprisingly, he also had to deal with back in his day):
As we see, the objections against the doctrine of God’s election is not a novelty that only emerged in recent centuries. The world always questions the unfathomable ways and wisdom of God, as they did in Paul’s day. We know this because Paul then answered their objections (the following quote is an immediate continuation of the above quoted Scripture):
If God has chosen to elect no one, He would still be a God of justice in doing so, since He has no obligation to save anyone. But He, in His divine mercy and grace, has chosen to elect some — wretched sinners such as ourselves who were not merely sick, but dead, to sin. This is why grace is so amazing! This is why we praise and sing “Amazing grace.” To echo Michael Horton: Yes, let us put amazing back into grace. Thank you all for reading. May our gracious, merciful God continue to bless you.
December 22nd, 2007 at 8:03 am | Permalink
Jessica, I commend you on your gracious, yet cogent defense of the doctrines of grace. Ran across your blog from the PB. Since I am always looking for more Reformed blogs to which I can link, I will certainly add yours. My blog has been on an anti-FV kick for some time, but there are other things there as well (including a complete series of sermons on Genesis).
Hunt’s book is not a reliable guide to understanding Calvinism. His scholarship is not merely sloppy, it is non-existent. He interacts with none of the great Calvin scholars (such as Parker, Muller, or Warfield), and erects straw-men all over the place. The best book to understanding all of this is Jerome Zanchius’s book _Absolute Predestination_. It is published in English by Maranatha Bible Society. It is said of this book that Augustus Toplady challenged John Wesley to read this book and refute it. Wesley promised that he would, and yet never did.
December 22nd, 2007 at 7:53 pm | Permalink
Hello Pastor Lane,
Thanks so much for taking the time to visit. It was very nice to read your comment. Thanks so much for recommending Jerome Zanchius’s Absolute Predestination. That’s so interesting to hear the story about Augustus Toplady’s challenge to John Wesley to read this book!
I’m also honored that you linked to my blog from yours. Thank you! I learn a lot from your blog and have added it in my blogroll. Will visit it back again.
Have a wonderful day of worship on the Lord’s Day tomorrow!
December 24th, 2007 at 11:54 pm | Permalink
Is Divine Election Fair?
Perhaps the biggest hurdle people stumble over concerning the Biblical doctrine of Divine Election, is the idea that it just doesn’t seem fair. It is the issue I struggled with for many years, as like many others, I had the idea that in order for God to be fair, He has to treat all people equally.
Lets consider this fact though: When a person gives that which he has no obligation to give, he is considered gracious in giving to other people; but he is certainly not considered unjust because he doesn’t give to an additional party.
Dr. Michael Horton gives an illustration which makes the issue very clear. He tells of a man who has a million dollars that he wants to give away and he decides to give $100,000 to ten different organizations. An eleventh organization hearing about this act of charity would not have a just case against the man if they were to make the claim that he hasn’t been fair.
That’s obvious isn’t it? The man owes nothing to this 11th organization, just as he didn’t owe anything to the ten others he gave to. This 11th organization doesn’t have a just claim to that money. The man has every right to do what he wants with his own money and he can give it to whomever he will. That is exactly what takes place in Divine Election.
- Pastor John Samson
December 25th, 2007 at 3:02 am | Permalink
Pastor Samson, that is a helpful example. The only thing that I would add is to factor in Sin. It’s not as though God saves or passes by worthy recipients of his mercy. He does so to flagrant and habitual violators of his Law. We deserve judgment, and not only that, our consciences testify against us (Romans 1, 2:15).
Is it fair? We should tremble at the idea of God being fair!
I’m sure this was covered adequately above but I just wanted to add that to your analogy. Cheers!
December 25th, 2007 at 9:54 pm | Permalink
Hi there, Jeff!
Indeed! That’s a great point. I’m grateful God spares us from what we deserve and, in His mercy, grants us what we actually do not deserve. Thanks so much for leaving a comment!
Nice to know you stopped by.
December 26th, 2007 at 3:42 pm | Permalink
Jessica, it’s my pleasure. And my compliments to you for your wonderful blog!
December 28th, 2007 at 2:03 am | Permalink
Hi Jeff, thanks so much for your kind compliment on my humble abode on the net!
It’s encouraging to hear that.
I hope that you have a blessed Friday. And oh, have fun reading those books on your list!